After watching some of the latest historical Jesus shows on television, I wondered how Jesus would be received if he’d make a similar physical visit today.
Would his mission be similar? He’d be coming at a similar time when the religious establishment has calcified around certain practices, places, rules and rituals. Would he seek to shake that up? I wonder.
Where would he hang out? Would he make his appearances and do his remarkable work primarily on Sundays in beautiful, theater-like church buildings? Or somewhere else?
For whom would he prioritize his ministry? The religious establishment status quo? Or someone else?
Would he construct an intricate membership organization that relies on sizable weekly attendance to survive? Or would he simply touch people wherever he’d find them?
With whom would he share a meal? Celebrities? Or the “little people” and the scorned?
If religious leaders would bring a person caught in sexual sin, how would Jesus react? Condemn the person? Or protect the person from the condemning leaders?
What would he say to those who staunchly guard the religious traditions and practices of the day–the Sunday rituals, the 30-minute lecture/sermon, the musical formula, a particular English translation of the scriptures? Congratulate them? Or challenge their human assumptions?
What would be his mission’s end game, his measure of success? Convincing the people to become habitual spectators at Sunday morning presentations? Or to join him on a mission of love?
I wonder.
Jesus is one of those odd personalities. If you seek Him out for friendship, you won’t get it. If your seeking out eternal life you won’t find it but if your not you’ll find it. If you have it, He’ll tell you your going to loose it. If you approach Jesus with your good deeds, He’ll show you how you fall short. If you show Jesus how much you have sacrificed and gave to the poor and needy, He’ll point out how you still didn’t give enough. If you try to exalt yourself in any way you’ll be abased but if you humble yourself before Him you’ll be exalted. If you ask Him a question, His answer will be totally off topic and something else He sees you need to hear. As much as I would strive to see Jesus if he were to show up again, I can see Him say something to me as offending as things He said to the Pharisees. I would honestly not know how to approach Him. Maybe just a simple “Hello!” and “Ahh…Well… Hmmm.” It’s easy to pray to Him because He’s not talking directly back but the thought of actually having a face to face conversation with Jesus makes me nervous. I would like to just stand back and listen to Him though. I would probably learn something.
Hmm. Which continent? Doesn’t the Bible say EVERY eye will see him? Satellite TV, CNN, CBS, CBC, Cable, NBC, TSN, resurrected Larry King show? Maybe the earth will be flat by then?
Jesus Is the same today as He was when He first physically walked among us. Knowing that, I believe His purpose would be the same – to seek and save the lost, to teach those who believe in Him to love more, to share the Good News of salvation through Him, to know Him more. He would be rejected, as we are, by those who do not desire to know Him or be like Him; however, for those who seek Him, they will find Him. We must always remember that Jesus Loves Us, and has a better plan for us than we can ever imagine. That, too, will never change.
Thom, you might remember, I was asking the same question when we were in our teens. Hard to believe that I was thinking Theologically back then, huh?
Grace and Peace
Pastor Rob (Robby) Nedbalek † † †
Freedom in Christ Prison Ministry http://www.ficprisonministry.com/
Transforming lives at Montana State Prison through the power and presence of Jesus Christ.
Rob, you were destined to be a rebel pastor!
Thank you Thom. The church seems genuinely excited to repeatedly view the “historic” Jesus on film and television, and we proudly claim, “that’s our guy,” while high-fiving each other as if at a championship soccer match. If we’re not watching it on a large screen in our living rooms, we’re getting the same thing from our pulpits. But then we aren’t willing to examine our hearts and actions in an attempt to understand what Christ wanted for us and from us; to do the difficult work of bearing the burdens of others; to forgive rather than take revenge; to pray in humility rather than in public. All this reminds me of the Dorothy Day oft-mangled quote, “The Church is a whore, but she’s my mother.” I’m just having trouble going home to see mom right now.
I think it’s abundantly clear from the Biblical text in both the first and second testaments that God abhors religious ceremony and hollow ritual completely absent relationship with him…or worse, as a replacement for genuine relationship with him. Of course we, being human, also run the risk of letting care for others, pursuing social justice, being the ‘hands and feet’ of Jesus, etc. become the replacement for relationship with him. The bottom line is God is jealous for us and wants our full attention. Giving him that means we are ready to go where he sends us, do what he tells us and be who he made us to be. Each of us, individually who then gather to be what he intends us to be corporately. The bottom line is we exist at his pleasure and for his purpose. Religion as a replacement is an abomination. Likewise, service to others as a replacement is, as well. The inclination in the sinful heart of man is to replace God. Therein lies the rub.
Troll alert! Really now… From another Reverend.
(Response to the too clever for us mortals, Reverend Lawrence.)
I live under a troll bridge, constantly crossed by the not so holey holy one, leaving the churches and becoming someone else. Fundamentalists, step back to see what is happening.
Basing it off what he did when he was physically here, I suppose he would go where the “religious establishment” was, like he did when he went to the synagogues. He would probably make use of “theater-like church buildings,” like when he taught in the Temple in Jerusalem. He might put together a “membership organization” similar to his calling, teaching, and working with the 12. But no 30-minute lectures – his often went on for hours. (Yeah, Ryan, I think we would just stand back and listen!) And just as he traveled wherever people were, he would go to malls, parks, schools, slums, farms, restaurants, bars, hospitals, nursing homes, jails…wherever people are. The problem with the American church is not its methods, schedules, or organizations. The problem is our hearts. If that ever changes then we will use whatever method, schedule, or organization it takes.
Mike. How about 1/2 time appearance at Super Bowl L? What a world wide crowd!!
I think He’d be happy to share in some mac and cheese with us on a late Wednesday night and He’d encourage us to seek finding ways to find more quarters so we could do laundry at the laundry mat for the homeless. He’d be there folding the T-Shirts and Jeans.
I’m sure He would love coming with our volunteers to a Campus Life meeting and sit with those middle schoolers with us while we listen and sympathize with those kids about how a mom or a dad left them when they were little or how they were handling being bullied because they did not have a new coat or a comfortable pair of shoes to wear to school this year.
Most importantly, I know that His encouragement would help our young millennial American Christians understand that it was in the “hearing” of the Word that once saved them, but it is in their “doing” that will move them forward. Our youth already know that the sleeping church will continue to meet inside the walls of concerts and sermons but will effect no changes as long as they continue to just sit there. It is by their “love” that they will be known as followers of Christ. Why? Because “loving” others where they are, is where you would find Jesus and you’d need to be where He was if you were to follow Him!
By Jesus’ example, our young people would be so inspired, I believe, that they would be dragging their friends out of their beds to be with them! They would mobilize such a revival. Why do I say such things? Because our millennial Americans are already looking to serve “humanity.” They are wired to love others. The only problem is what is leading them–what has their attention, who has their ear? Right now, its not the church. We are but a clanging gong!
The harvest is ready but the workers are few? If Jesus isn’t here in person at this time, then who will the world turn to in order to “see” Jesus? They wouldn’t find Jesus in the walls of a church but out in the crowds of the needy, therefore where should the leaders of the church be if they are representing Jesus until He comes? Come on guys, let’s take it outside!
It’s getting near time for Jesus’ glorious revisit. And when He does, will things will sure shake up then.
Bill Wagner
Parkland House
Nice concepts Bill. However, I was taught it was ‘game over’ when Jesus returns. No more need for all the help to others stuff. No overtime, no extra innings, no ‘shootouts’ no penalities, just the ‘bema.’
So… we’ve got to get busy loving one more, then one more, then one more, then….!!
I’ve asked that same question over and over again. If Jesus was to walk incognito among us – who would we most resemble – himself or the scribes and Pharisees that he referred to as vipers? Hmmm? Selah…………..
I wasn’t aware that He had gone anywhere: “I am with you always.”
Jesus came as the second “Adam,” to perfect that “persona.”
So, for example, Jesus called John the Baptist “Elijah”
Let’s have faith in the natural laws that God created, and get away from believing in “miracles” in order to explain everything we can’t prove. Sounds kinda lazy to me.
Accept the world God created, and wrap around biblical concepts with new wonderful, loving, natural thinking, (God created those natural laws, why not follow ’em?) like maybe the “person” of Jesus doesn’t return, but the “persona” of Jesus does:
A Third Adam who embodies the spirit of a perfected man. That’s what Our Heavenly Father is looking for, an embodiment of His very nature, which we all originally were meant to be. And he won’t die a miserable death this time. We’ll let him live and teach us how to really love God, ourselves and our neighbors.
Then, when he takes his wife…
C’mon. Think of the possibilities! Don’t stay caught up in the mindset held 2,000 years ago. God (and Jesus) is way beyond that! Let’s Go!
Jerry, you have some interesting ideas. They’re incorrect, but interesting. There is no need for a third “Adam”. Remember that Jesus said, “It is finished.” It’s up to us to practice what He taught and demonstrated with the help of the Holy Spirit. “…He will come again in glory to judge the quick and the dead and His kingdom will have no end…” (Nicene Creed)
murals2go, Thanks for your response, but… Hey lighten up! 🙂
Yes, these ideas I mention are indeed interesting: revolutionary!
However I have found them to be Biblical-based as well as “correct.”
I would hope your judgement of “incorrect” is something we would refrain from using when we don’t agree.
Next comes “heretic” then “blashphemer” then…
But, hey thanks for caring!
Jerry, I was not being judgmental at all, merely quoting the Nicene Creed. If your (revolutionary) ideas are out of line with the Nicene Creed, then yes, you would be promoting a false belief. What is your issue with the Nicene Creed?
I don’t think you were being judgemental, simply correct. A third Adam is bad theology. All to often we miss the point of ‘it is finished’ – Jesus accomplished what he set out to do. Humankind keep turning that accomplishment on the head – turns its collective back on the all that Jesus achieved.
To ‘imagine’ Jesus coming here is also bad theology. He is here. That is what we proclaim through the Gospels, our creeds, and 2000 years of teaching.
Thank you for your comment. I finally figured out the correct way to reply to these posts, ha!
It’s always great to meet another artist! I like your work and the inspiration behind it. Do you have other work in encaustic?
I am “incorrect” – lol
I am using “bad theology” – lol
Sorry, guys, I’m just originally addressing the article with my own understanding of God’s providence. 🙂
I’m not interested in a fight, and don’t want to clog Thom’s great blog. If what I say doesn’t agree with you, follow your own heart.
Jerry
Greet everyone with a loving heart.
Speak the truth with a clear voice.
I will not follow my own heart or imaginings, but I will follow Jesus’ heart, teachings and what is declared in the Nicene Creed. You still did not answer the question “what is your issue with the Nicene Creed?” I can only guess that either you have no issue with it, or perhaps have never studied it. Your stated beliefs are in conflict with the Nicene Creed, which really is quite beautiful.
Jerry, I was not being judgmental at all, merely quoting the Nicene Creed. If your (revolutionary) ideas are out of line with the Nicene Creed, then yes, you would be promoting a false belief. What is your issue with the Nicene Creed?
Jerry, I was not being judgmental at all, merely quoting the Nicene Creed. If your (revolutionary) ideas are out of line with the Nicene Creed, then yes, you would be promoting a false belief. What is your issue with the Nicene Creed?
Thank you, brgeem, for your comment. And it is nice to meet another artist! I like your work!
Jerry, you have some interesting ideas. They’re incorrect, but interesting. We have no need of a third “Adam”. Remember that Jesus said, “It is finished.” The real trick is to actually practice what Jesus taught in words and example with help from the Holy Spirit.
“A Third Adam who embodies the spirit of a perfected man. That’s what Our Heavenly Father is looking for, an embodiment of His very nature, which we all originally were meant to be. And he won’t die a miserable death this time. We’ll let him live and teach us how to really love God, ourselves and our neighbors.”
Aren’t we sealed with the Holy Spirit making us an embodiment of His very nature. Although we are still not perfect as the Holy Spirit does not over-ride our nature but does help us when we ask and desire to be more like Christ. Also the Holy Spirit does help and teach us how to love God and our neighbor. Obviously we are in no way a 3rd Adam and we still die and shed this mortal flesh.
You really didn’t answer the “What if He actually came today”. How would you take it? What would you say if you could get close enough to talk to Him especially when He know every dark secret in your heart? That’s scary.
We know that the actual next one that comes and claims to be Jesus to deceives the nations will not be Jesus but the anti-christ.
Lots of ideas, Ryan.
What would you do, or how would you react, if the Messiah returned to earth—not on the clouds but born again as a man in the flesh? Most Christians do not know the precarious situation we are in today as we begin the new millennium. Many accept the biblical account of the Last Days literally and passively wait for those events to take place. They believe that one day, Jesus will just appear on the clouds of heaven and all true believers will be saved. Yet there are ample reasons to expect otherwise.
Today for many Christians it defies logic and intellect to believe that the Messiah will actually return on clouds. Based on the knowledge of science and physical laws, atmospheric clouds are simply unable to support any weighted object. Therefore, in the Second Coming, Christ will not appear on the clouds of heaven. God is sending His son to restore the things that were lost on earth at the Fall of Humankind.
“Surely the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Therefore, if God knows the day and hour, wouldn’t He tell someone? The answer is yes!
The birth of Jesus was revealed to the three wise men, the shepherds in the fields, and two old people, Simeon and Anna. Therefore, at the Second Coming of Christ, God will surely speak to those who have “ears to hear and eyes to see.”
I believe that time is now, and we are living in the age of the Completed Testament. If we become slaves to the “letter of the Scripture” we may make the same mistake that was committed at the time of Jesus. Believers may be crying out, “Lord, Lord,” at the same time that they may be trying to crucify the Messiah if he appears in a manner different from their expectations.
Still never answered my question from earlier, but realize that when Jesus appeared to his disciples after His resurrection he either walked through the wall or perhaps the locked door (John 20:19). So therefore, if He can do that, he can certainly defy the physical laws of clouds. I don’t know how He will come on the clouds, I just know He will.
Since Jesus didn’t know the time that the Father has appointed, then no one knows. When God wants to tell us, He will tell us.
Also, it was not just the fall of humankind. All creation is redeemed (Colossians 1:20). Oh, and don’t worry about Jesus being crucified again if He comes in a different way than what we expect. According to the Nicene Creed, “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.” He will be coming in power to judge all.
I think Thom is asking us to imagine Jesus coming here on the same level as his incarnation, not his return in power and glory. The thing is, Jesus challenged EVERYONE, including the woman caught in sexual sin whom he did not condemn – “go and sin no more.” So I’m not sure any of us would get a pat on the back with “keep up the good work.” Yes, he would be overflowing with grace and truth, but that means he would go to the depths of our spirits/hearts/minds/souls and deal with the real us (like the woman at the well, John 4). I don’t think most of us – including me – are letting him do that now. We can turn our church practices inside out and upside down but without deep heart transformation there will only be surface changes.
Jerry….. wow….. were are you coming up with this stuff……. because its not biblical….at all
I’ll go back and address the first issue…. Jesus is my best friend
On a different note. Jesus will not come as a baby born from a woman. You must understand the context of that arguement and realize the way the culture of the time viewed original sin and how it was passed on from generation to generation. (virgin birth is applicable to this) (I.E. that is why the virgin birth. If Jesus was born like any one else he would have original sin like everyone else and not be the pure devine that he is.
Im not sure what issues you have with the nicene creed. please enlighten us?
I haven’t responded for a while to let things die down. The Nicene Creed(s) does not restrict me from being inspired “outside the box” of a 1,600 year old council. The Bible is just a tool to reach the Messiah, and different interpretations arise as we raise ever closer to understand God and ourselves. I believe in ongoing revelation, and modern man needs deeper understanding according to our age.
Too often Christianity explains away what it doesn’t understand with miracles and fantasy.
For instance, in The Fish & Loaves story: The real “miracle” was when Jesus preached living for the sake of others, and the baskets were passed around: people actually gave more than they took. Jesus changed the hearts of (us) selfish people. THAT is a miracle! Give him credit for a true life changing event in peoples hearts. For a man, Jesus, to do such a thing, is revolutionary. To reduce that to a “miracle” by God cheapens it. Many people saw Jesus’ miracles but that didn’t make them followers. He died abandoned and alone.
I don’t have a problem with The Nicene Creed (if I lived in 325 AD). I just think there is much more if we open our hearts and minds to a new age of enlightenment. Pray and listen.
Jerry:
1. Congratulations! You have successfully embraced a New Age Christianity that ceases to resemble the Faith handed down from the Apostles.
2. There is only one Nicene Creed. Creed comes from the Latin word “credo” meaning “I believe”. If your belief is outside the creed, you don’t believe the creed.
3. IF people gave of what they had in the Feeding of the Five Thousand it is no miracle. The miracle of Jesus feeding 5000 miraculously is a typology of Moses feeding the people of Israel in the wilderness.
4. If you depart from the ancient beliefs, you depart from Christianity. You cannot claim with any honesty to be a follower of Christ. I will pray for your soul. In the mean time, enjoy your New Age cult!
Hey, Rev,
Thanks for your comments. It shows you care, Brother!
I am not departing from the will of God throughout history to restore us. That’s what matters to me. I believe we are living in the era of the LSA, so we need new revelation. Thom’s topic is so timely!
I happily stand by my understanding, what you refer to as a “New Age” True Christian. I offer my comments. Entertain them or not. I’m not going to attack you, or call you names for your beliefs.
BTW, how many “denominations” of Christianity are there because of doctrinal differences? 600+? Funny, since there is but one Jesus.
I am a follower too.
And I am enjoying what you call a cult, much like the early Christians.
In answer to Thom’s question:
“He’d be coming at a similar time when the religious establishment has calcified around certain practices, places, rules and rituals. Would he seek to shake that up? I wonder.”
A resounding YES!
(maybe even a HELL YES!) LOL
Nope. Sorry Jerry, but you’re still outside orthodoxy. I’ll pray for the Holy Spirit to enlightens you.
Hey, Rev, Webb,
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but your reply reminds me of a saying:
Ever hear the expression “Who died and made you Pope?”
Just trying to lighten things up here. LOL.
Jerry. You may think you are following Christ, but if you are not standing on the teaching of the apostles, the ancient church fathers, and the traditions of the church, you have removed yourself from the Christian faith and the foundation laid by the apostles, the ancient church fathers, and the seven ecumenical councils.
I am not pope, but I am a trained theologian. My training tell me that your beliefs are heterodox and anathema.
Your last comments also suggest you a troll and I trust the moderator will remove you. May the Holy Spirit enlighten you and may God have mercy on us all.
Jerry, are you a gnostic?
Are gnu? lol
Rev. Webb, as a fellow-Rev of some 45 years experience and with three hard-earned theological degrees, I find your self-righteous attitude disturbing. I work a lot with young and older adults who are totally disillusioned with the clergy, the institutional church, etc, and they have many legitimate grounds for concern. You say you are not a pope, but you come across like one – in any case, Jerry’s quip was meant to be humorous! And just by the way, I am evangelical in my theology and hold to the major creeds. But as Albert Einstein said, ‘When we all think alike, no one thinks very much.’ As Oswald Chambers put it, “It takes God along time to get us to stop thinking that unless everyone sees things exactly as we do, they must be wrong. That is never God’s view.” I don’t agree with Jerry’s theology either and feel he needs to get more serious about the truth as it is in Christ (John 14:6), but right doctrine never qualified anyone for the kingdom, having a personal relationship with God in Christ does – I make this as a general statement. I think just a tad more grace and patience would be helpful on the part of us all, including myself??
I am disturbed that I came across as self-righteous. That is the last thing I intended. All I was trying to do was defend orthodoxy.
Thank you sir for your gracious response.
ErrollMulder – “Right doctrine never qualified anyone for the kingdom, having a personal relationship with God in Christ does”
I love this idea you wrote. Nice to hear a voice of tolerance, understanding and truth!
FYI: I consider myself a faithful Christian, and was only trying to add some ideas I have beyond what people are used to. (Thought that’s what Thom wanted.)
I like the emphasis on Jesus being human, with the full spirit of God the Father within. God didn’t prepare His people for 2,000+ years to murder Jesus, but to ACCEPT Him. I don’t think there is anything wrong with questioning why John the Baptist didn’t lend his full support, which would have allowed Jesus to live longer.
Would church leaders recognize and accept the Messiah today if His message evolved further than the year 33AD?
I really believe this is a New Age, and I see putting new wine in old wine skins doesn’t quite work! IF anyone views the Bible with a new paradigm, there is much more being revealed for our time. Please don’t waste time judging me, God will handle that. 🙂
Good thing there are no Muslims or Jews commenting. Can you imagine the comments then? LOL – or NOT!
Bottom line: I am confident in my love for Jesus, yet always searching for the voice of God for today. I believe in continuing revelation. Peace on, brothers!
Jerry, it was a serious question. Mocking is not a fruit of the spirit. Your philosophy sounds Gnostic and that would explain a lot about your viewpoints, even if I disagree with them. I was merely trying to understand. Maybe you enjoy making light of orthodox beliefs, but you come across as being very arrogant and unable to receive honest feedback.
I have given my views here in response to Thom’s original question.
Some replies:
“incorrect”
“promoting a false belief”
“bad theology”
“not biblical….at all”
“in conflict with the Nicene Creed”
“cannot claim with any honesty to be a follower of Christ”
“outside orthodoxy”
“depart from the ancient beliefs”
“depart from Christianity”
“New Age cult”
“gnostic”
“mocking…enjoy making light of orthodox beliefs”
“very arrogant” (as opposed to being regular arrogant, I suppose)
“unable to receive honest feedback”
I really love you guys! LOL <3
I thin murals2go is right Jerry, most of the comments are about trying to understand what people are saying, and thus indulge in productive conversation and debate. If you really love us, lighten up a little.
Errolmullder, Jerry has brought a lot of this on himself, in my opinion. He could’ve answered my question about the Nicene Creed in the very beginning. He also could have responded to my sincere question if he was gnostic, even if I disagree with that philosophy. I still don’t understand the acronym LSA; he seemingly doesn’t want to declare any foundation of belief. Instead, I got a repeated response of what I take as “I am not going to take anything you say seriously.” He has an air of superiority that makes me think he is trying to portray himself as a leader. If he is a leader, then some accountability is needed. Why do I care? Many years ago when I was 19, naive, and spiritually hungry, I got involved in a “Christian” cult. I believed that if they were teaching about Jesus, then everything they taught must be truth. How deceived I was! It took a while to undo the misinformation I had received. To quote The Who, “I won’t be fooled again!” Since that time, my relationship with Jesus has helped me discern His truth above all else, even in church when some leaders choose to exclusively preach judgement and condemnation. Jesus does not contradict the Bible, nor the creeds. I spent some years teaching youth to own their own faith (discipleship) early on, because once they get to college, they will be bombarded with all kinds of other philosophies. I saw many red flags in Jerry’s comments that cause concern. As an aside, I also know Rev. Webb to be a passionate protector of the faith. If you could meet him, you would see that. His sermons are full of grace, mercy and truth. He is currently ministering to those who have been wounded by the church. He really is praying for Jerry. But he is done commenting on this thread. My hope is that Jerry will at least humble himself enough to listen to correction from the Holy Spirit if from no one else.
Note: LSA = Lord of the Second Advent.
Jerry, thank you for spelling out the acronym.
Thanks for your explanation.
“I am disturbed that I came across as self-righteous. That is the last thing I intended. All I was trying to do was defend orthodoxy.”
This might have been said by one of the “High Priests” that wouldn’t listen to Jesus, attacked Him with name-calling, and called for his death.